Route: Devil's Path (NY)

Want to make a record of important discussion re. this/other FKT's - from Jack Kuenzle's Strava post

Ja Shua Ried
Dude this is excellent and I’m so happy to see it lowered so I might get stoked on the route again. Success!
4 years ago

Aaron Newell
Jack Kuenzle agreed on snow FKT’s. We’re having the problem in the Adk where people aren’t bringing state mandated gear for going into the mountains just to run faster on packed down snow. I see running fast on snow as a novelty not so much an accomplishment. As far as ethics for FKT routes goes, I feel like the Northeast has pretty set ways to do each of the iconic routes: Devil’s Path- carry everything but fill up at the spigot or stream at half way. Presi- carry everything and fill water up at huts or lakes Great Range- carry everything and fill up in streams Although I feel like there is a place for multiple categories like supported, self supported, and unsupported on the longer trails (like the AT, PCT, Long Trail, etc), I feel like the iconic NE routes should stick to a single ethos on each one. The FKT’s around here started out as seeing how fast you could go on a route relative to other people. Not how fast you could logistically make the route. Basically, if you’re going to line people up to give you things on each summit are you also going to have people go through and buff out the trail, moving rocks and downed trees? I still think your time is blisteringly fast but I would love to see you try it again without aid stations.
4 years ago

Jack Kuenzle
Aaron yeah I agree with you. I hesitated to run this with support, one of the reasons I chose to run it supported was because of your GRT and Jordan Fields Pemi. Jordan essentially ran unsupported, but he did have pacing, in a way, for the first quarter or so and his effort was designated out as Supported. I ran and set the official unsupported record, but, imo, noone cares. In the eyes of the community and the public, Jordan has the record, even though his style wasn't perfect (His effort started as a training run blah blah I think everyone knows the story). Similarly with your GRT. Admittedly I didn't get super into the details but I think you did have someone accompany you and took the record in (technically) supported style. You have the GRT, noone caveats that with Atkins technically having the unsupported record or whatever. Based on that, I felt like eventually all of the mountain records in the Northeast eventually would go supported, even if they had been raced unsupported in the past, and it was appropriate to start racing routes supported. I talked with Jordan and he agreed (Jordan feel free to step in if I'm off here). Unlike the snow I don't really see anything wrong with supported vs unsupported, there are different records for each. Simultaneously, I think if you extend some of my logic on the "over the snow efforts" than running supported to set an FKT on a route that has been raced primarily unsupported in the past is wrong. When it comes to my upcoming efforts on the Pemi/Presi/GRT I'm grappling with style and I can see arguments to each. To some extent, I try and look to the European scene. Probably not relevant, but IMO over there noone cares about style and everything goes supported. I think this is an incredibly important debate. Ried's unsupported record still stands and still is a mark to beat. Possibly could list an official style/overall record for routes, Ja Shua Ried having the "official" record on the Devil's Path.
4 years ago

Aaron Newell
Jack Kuenzle haha I had no idea my run on the GRT was classified as “supported” until months later. I didn’t talk about it at the time because I didn’t think it helped at all to be shouting directions and worrying about a dying Ryan Kempson who was behind me the entire time and helped me in no way (and had never been on the route). I guess the reason why I feel so strongly about it is because I think is a bit of a sham now just pandering to the largest audience possible now that it is a money making business. On the old pro boards forum there was no “supported” or “unsupported” records on the Presi and the GRT it was just whoever went the fastest in the style that the previous record holder did it in. Had I run the GRT and been slower than Ryan Atkins time I wouldn’t have submitted a “supported” FKT to FKT site because in my eyes there’s only ever been one record on the GRT. The same goes for the Devil’s Path and the Presi. If somebody goes faster, regardless of style, that’s the new overall FKT. It just becomes harder and harder to get all the people and shit together once that door gets opened. The moral of the story is that the FKT site shouldn’t be dictating any guidelines since it originally started as a way to show local records in local fashion and has become a business that functions on the premise of giving the most amount of people the same “FKT”.
4 years ago

Jack Kuenzle
That's funny. I had no idea. I thought you were legit supported on that effort and Ryan mule’d gear for you or something. Yeah that's really a different story on your GRT. I was listening to you on some podcast and you were saying something similar regarding the site. I'm the regional editor for the southeast US. What I'm saying here obviously is not the official position of the site or anyone else there, but I know Peter and Buzz both pretty well, I'm quite confident they aren't making any money off the site. Their intentions are absolutely in the right place, I just think execution could be tweaked a little. I don't want to speak for Peter, but my guess is it started off in the beginning like the Proboards and Peter had no interest in establishing exact guidelines for routes, but once you list a description and a GPX, people take that as the official rules, even if you are just trying to denote what route the record refers to. The current break down also falls heavily on athletes. Of course the site hasn't exactly encouraged this, but when someone sets the FKT I believe, much like climbing, they then own the route. People who run FKTs primarily come from a road and trail racing background so they look to Peter, Buzz, and the regional editors like race directors and expect to have exact guidelines set by some governing body. Setting FKTs is closer to climbing and people should look to the current record holder if they have questions on style and ethics. On a different note, I think the site is right to expand and include many routes. Although there is some stuff on the site that probably doesn’t belong, but I have no problem with there being tons of routes in every state. The site could probably do a better job breaking out “Premier” routes, but there being a ton of small FKT routes across the country doesn’t at all take away from the major, high profile efforts. Just like there being a 5K turkey trot in every podunk town doesn’t take away from Boston. My opinion.
4 years ago

Jack Kuenzle
I'd also be super curious what you think on this debate Ben Nephew ....supported vs unsupported on this route
4 years ago

Jordan Fields
Hey guys, I’ve been circling around many of the same questions of late. My thinking continues to evolve but here’s where I am at for now.

1. Run the route. No running off trail, ever, unless there is no trail.
2. The route should be run in:
a. Conditions (i.e. snow off or snow on, where applicable) and,
b. Style that it was first set in (i.e. supported, unsupported, self-supported).
If 2a and 2b are not met, it should be a classified as different record.

Why on trail? Because we want a repeatable route, not a free-for-all through the woods that will soon get FKT disinvited from most public lands.

Why conditions and style specific? Climbing is instructive here, I think. If a route is put up on rock in summer but becomes an ice or mixed route in the winter, it is not classified as the same route, because it is fundamentally different and requires a different skillset and tools. The climbing community is also a good resource on style. It doesn’t count as repeating a route if you aid climb a free route. You can run a different style, that’s just fine, it will just be noted (as it is now on the site) and the original style should be the one respected as the “official” record. This is pretty close to what the site does already.

Staying on trail can be verified by GPS, so accountability is not an issue there. And if someone takes a wrong turn but then gets back on route via trails, it shouldn’t count against them if they still go on to set the record.

Conditions and style cannot be remotely verified, so we rely on the inherent good nature and honesty of our community members, which I strongly believe in and trust. If there is snow on the trail that made traveling easier, check a box to say so, and it will be denoted as “winter conditions”. If you received aid, report it. Simple.

Gray areas abound and slopes are slippery and no one is right or wrong in these discussions. That’s what makes it hard, but we’ve got to approach these questions or we’re going to walk into an arms race of who has friends with snowshoes and pull saws to turn a winter trail into a veritable country turnpike.

Any new guidelines would, of course, apply to future runs. So, this shouldn’t take away from Jack’s super impressive effort here! Inspiring run! And I agree with Jack that the new rules about unsupported runs (discussed elsewhere exhaustively) are unnecessarily restrictive, in my view. Given the new rules, I have considered dispatching an army of supporters out on trail to provide real support for future runs if something as insubstantial as a photo being taken of me is going to put me in the same category as taking water and food every few miles.

That said, I’ll try to respect my own thoughts here and will run Pemi/Presi type routes as unsupported going forward, as they were originally run.

Anyway, hope to see you both (and others reading here too!) out on the trails soon!
4 years ago

Jordan Fields
PS Aaron Newell my Pemi was marked supported for almost the exact scenario, so I feel ya.
4 years ago

Jack Kuenzle
Thanks Jordan. Honestly what got me so passionate about all of this was your effort on the Presi. Not to be a fan boy or something but I thought it was very cool how you ran the Presi and went out of your way to do it in the best style possible (I.e. tagging summits and not taking the cog), above and beyond what some previous athletes had done. You absolutely added time to your effort doing that. After in your TR you were clear about what you did and established that as the route. That should be the standard.
4 years ago

Ben Nephew
Some good points brought up here. In general, I don't think this is all that complicated. I'm not sure style is the right descriptor though. It is about comparing apples to apples; having your fruit in the proper category. There are clear benefits to being supported, whether it is the AT or the Devils Path. There is a reason Kipchoge does not race with a Camelback, and why being motorscooter aided during a marathon is not legit. Don't put Peter and and Buzz in a position to make a judgement call, do it supported or unsupported. On the winter conditions, comparing a winter time with a summer time is a joke. We already depend on people's character on support, so this is no different. Does anyone really think someone is going to get away with calling a packed out route a summer time in this day and age? I find this highly unlikely for a whole pile of reasons. I have done almost everything unsupported. I don't care about style, my reasoning was that there are not many folks doing this, and I'd rather put up a time that someone can just show up and run at, rather than require a team, or even a single person to support.
4 years ago

Ryan Kempson
Sick effort Jack! supported or unsupported you hammered! Im new to this is all but I agree with your comment on the snow. Especially in the north east. The challenging terrain is what makes these routes special and doing them on perfect paved conditions on snow is an entirely different experience. To each their own.
4 years ago